-If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough.

The two presidents with the highest IQ's were Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon. Consequently they both got themselves into fluff.

Bill Bellichick is probably the best coach in the NFL and he also got caught cheating.

The list goes on but you get the point. Anyone with the competitive drive to win WILL consider bending and even breaking the rules. The most successful business' commit some of the most immense white collar crimes imaginable, that effect the entire world economy.

It is not that I condone cheating but it IS human nature. Humans are impusive not instinctual, they FEEL biological desires but can choose to take the moral highground, avoid the default setting.

In The United States we have three branches. Judicial, Executive and Legislative. The reason why we have THREE branches is because if one gains too much power, the other two will gang up on it and bring it down. (albeit them all secretly being together and shadow government similar to RD.) But this game teaches us alot that we already have observed about humanity.

People will cheat. Then we will catch them. Then there will be consequences. Nonetheless, throughout history many have sufferred for the actions of few. What we know is that Hanlong and TC cheated. They are being dealt with. Lafamilglia as a whole should NOT be condemned as any clan in their position. The main reason why they are suffering so much heat is because they are a formiddable superpower many would want to see go...

And as USA was a superpower, the european union began, a similar superpower. Similar to Laf vs SOL/MD/EVO and if you think for a second that a dramatic balance in power in SOL/MD/EVO favor wont have consequences, you are sadly mistaken. I say be neutral and take a moral, ethical stance. Stand up for the better of the game.

Uh.

No.

O your in LCN?

Ill remember that.

Lol

Your "reality" compass is fluffed up.

The reason why we had the crisis is because there are people thinking like you.

Not a bad post although i say that with the assumption that you aren't advocating cheating :P

And Alin, the reason you have the crisis is because of greed and loose rules, not because of cheating.

Greed. What all humans have apart of them, differing from person to person.

Loose rules, the enviroment.

Cheating, the action taken.

Its called self control and muturity. Every day we will be faced with temptations, differing from one another. It is up to use to fight those temptations.

If we are unable too and we give into the temptations, it isnt the enviroments fault. It isnt the fact that we are human and its in our nature.
Its our own fault for taking that action.

Once again; I never advocated cheating. I instead indicated that it is within human nature to do whatever it takes to "win" and that although (jiman) as I also said... we are impulsive NOT instinctial, we have biological influences but we can choose TO or NOT TO give into them.

What Hanlong and TC did was WRONG, however somewhat understandable. Power comes with responsibility and humans normally give into that greed. They are and will pay for those actions. However it was THEM not the entire clan LaF. Nor Son Goku for that matter.

I completely agree with you. There is no disgression.

I disagree with with the above statements. I have never known anyone who cheats...

due to the incessant trolling between LaF and Evo over the past year or two, i demand that hanlong and TC receive a psychological exam before standing trial in order to determine the state of their mental health. i feel that certain members of this forum have placed my non-clients under duress and might've actually caused a permanent or temporary psychosis to develop during the stated period.

someone did a study and found the people with the best problem solving skills in society have been found to be master criminals and police detectives...

I stopped reading after that part as I completely disagree with you and challenge you... Have some integrity.

Someone also did another study that found that mountain dew lowers your sperm count (probably done by a high school student). Now we get the show 16 and preg.

You probably should've kept going. His post wasn't condoning cheating. HIs post was providing several compelling examples and arguments to support the idea that many people who are at the very top of their competitive fields might believe in or go by that mantra - "if I'm not cheating, I'm not trying hard enough." It was a hook to get people to read on by making a statement most people would find shocking. Apparently you found it so shocking that you chose not to read on. You shouldn't judge a post by its first sentence...

This is close to the stupidest non troll thread ever to occupy bandwidth.

Unless it is a troll thread.. then well played

Who could argue with your "If you're not with me, you're against me" attitude...

Great points Hawkeye.

If you arent cheating, you arent trying hard enough is a well known quote that I cited to make a point. Its not something I created within my own head.

Rule 35!

This. Except "muturity"=>"maturity".




Although yes, advocating for the success of the game itself is important, I don't think that "taking an ethical stance" and "being neutral" overlap when it comes to cheating. Taking a stance is, by definition, NOT remaining neutral.

As for cheating itself, we obviously aren't in a system where there's complete equality. "Fairness" isn't complete--there are and will continue to be disparities in power. But that doesn't mean that we simply surrender all tenets to functional society. We tolerate scumbags and idiots, but we don't tolerate thieves and violent crime. Cheating, I think most would agree, falls soundly in the latter category. It's intolerable, plain and simple.

Well then why bother posting, was it to show us just how ignorant you are? So you pick up a book.. wait never mind. If you can't tell that there was more content to the post than that sentence, it is quite doubtful you read.


Anyways, I can't possibly see what in the post there was to argue with or disagree with.

Neither violators posted their reasoning, and I think no one could argue that Hanlong was at the top of the political game. I think it is also logical that he may have felt he needed an advantage to stay at the top.

What are you idiots disagreeing with exactly? Or is it more that reading comprehension is so low in some of you that the concepts spoken were beyond your understanding.

Oh wait, most everyone that disagrees is a member of SoL, which already tried to rule the server and was squashed. Every time coalitions have popped up since TIL it has been very bad for the game. The numbers to support fair coalition vs anti-coalition wars do not exist. The coalitions also tend to be bullies bent on further ruining the game.

I find it funny that SoL had no problems with ruining the game and running their coalition until a new more powerful coalition formed and started crushing them. All the sudden they were ready to change their ways.

Edit: Completely got on a tangent, anyways Neutrality and making decisions for ethical reasons are the only way this game will survive.
That should include not gangbanging an alliance out of existence, nor should it mean perpetual wars. Future actions should very much be based on what is best for the server.

There is no way around it. I work alone and had the time to listen to this just the other night. It really does not apply here, but lets face it.. People Do the Craziest Things

http://www.npr.org/...good-people-do-bad-things

Understandable? I think not. This is just a game, and its relevant to the real world. People with that mentality are what cause many of the real world problems. To have that understanding in just a game scares me if you were part of legislation or politics, etc. People shouldn't go be these expectations of well it's in our nature so why not. It just gives them an excuse to act the way they did.

You mentioned Nixon and Clinton? A President who got impeached and one who had to resign to avoid impeachment. Doesn't sound very much like winning to me.

Clinton resigned?
News to me, I am near positive the scandal hit near the end of his second term. He finished out his term.

I could be wrong...

No matter, consider the man went in young and by the end of his 8 year term he looked like an old man, he should be free to engage in what ever activities he wishes with consenting of age interns.
His wife is an obvious cold fish, and it's a stressful job.

The only thing I question is why in the world Monique Lewinski.

Edit: Oh and that appeared to be completely off topic. I don't think OP means that it's understandable of what they did but more to why they might have done it.

I agree with your sentiment. The way I see it, TC/hlw were on the honor code, and they broke it. Putting all self righteousness aside, Just like in high school/college/life, there are going to be cheaters. Does it really surprise anyone that people cheat in this game. After being screwed over in life a few times, I've learned to always consider the other possibilities. Everyone has a different moral compass as to how much cheating their conscience can tolerate. Practically speaking, if you are going to cheat, don't get caught. If you get caught, then you will deal with the consequences.

My only worry is how Hanlong and TC are performing in their rl occupations if they are unable to keep from cheating in an online, text-based game. It really makes me wonder if their employers shouldn't be warned of this situation.

"Hello my name is NukEvil from Earth Empires...."

I'm not getting, a don't cheat vibe from this post....
If people took up a moral Ethical Stance to better the game... LaF wouldn't be around to break more rules.. as this community doesn't take kindly to cheaters...

People will cheat, and when they get caught IRL the business that they ran/owned/worked at, end up paying the price... Cheating is not something that is natural, it is something Greedy people do to only benifit themselves, a selfish act of hate towards people.. there is nothing natural about it, it is not in our genes, it is not in our nature.. it is something that only things with more advanced Thought processes do.

If people had only there animal Instincts to guide them, they would not bend/cheat/break rules... they'd would follow guide lines to the 'T' and not look for ways around them..

that's cause they both think the same way.

wtf junky, what you're saying doesn't make sense

if we all let our animal instincts guide us, none of us would follow any guidelines. We would bend/cheat/break rules because it wouldn't matter to us. Animal instincts is for survival and therefore nothing else matters besides self interest.

children are born evil and learn how to be good. i might be willing to go with them being born neutral, if it wasn't for that whole baptism thing which is supposed to wipe out original sin. i figure that it's there for a reason.

Junky:
So is this your first time reading. Let me spell it out for you.

1) Being at the top of ones field and wishing to remain there may offer an environment where bending or breaking the rules would make sense to them. This is a possible cause as to why they would do it.

2) Cheating is a part of human nature, it has happened, it likely is happening, and it almost defiantly will happen again.

3) The game and reality share links.

4) There should be consequences but many suffering for the acts of the few is not acceptable. I also believe he is hinting that if LaF was a mediocre alliance or isolated, rather than one of if not the most dominating and polarizing alliances, the outcry and backlash would not be as great as it is.

5)Just as it is not good for LaFs side to dominate, neither would it be good for SoLs side to dominate. Rather neutrality and moral and ethically driven stance should be had. Do what is right for the game, not your political agendas.


Unless I have completely read too much into his post this is what I draw out of it. This post doesn't appear to condone cheating anywhere, in fact it makes statements to the contrary.
However as you can see in my outline very little of his post is directed at the act of cheating.

To say that Clinton got impeached is a lie. People TRIED to impeach him, and failed at that. It is akin to being accused in a court of law and then absolved.

Nixon was the one who resigned. Clinton was fully impeached. Impeachment doesn't equal removal from office. Although Congress could pursue removal from office, impeachment alone is basically just a declaration of "You dun' wrong."

Impeachment actually is a two step procedure in the USA. First the house of representatives by a simple majority of those present pass a set of allegations, at whch point you call the person impeached, then the Senate, with the Chief Justice presiding in case it is the impeachment of the Prez, will try the fluffer, needing a 2/3 majority to convict him and remove him from office.

o_O Wow, I didn't think my US History had slipped so much. I could have sworn Nixon was fully impeached. However, it appears that he resigned rather than face the impeachment process.

I guess I somewhat remember Clinton being brought to a congressional hearing to determine if he was to begin the impeachment process. I guess it's been too long ago.

THIS.


------

And in relation to my analogy of Bill Clinton/Richard Nixon AND Bill Bellichick.... They were all cheaters. They all were at the top of their games. They all got caught. They all suffered consequences. Being that they had the highest iqs of all presidents and were both well known "card sharks" it should be clear that with that level of intelligence they would think they could outsmart just about everyone and get away with everything, which is NEVER the case.

Moral of the above Lafers :

"Cheat in on-line games - it will make you smarter than the other ones "

Is nice to know hanlong has now a legacy that can explain everthing - even the cheating IN AN ON LINE GAME - which of course just proofs that you are smarter than the other ones.

Sounds sort of like confucius.

I would disagree vehemently that Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon had higher levels of intelligence then other Presidents. IQ be damned.

NukE... you know I'm about as anti-cheat as they come, but even *I* think notifying employers about something that happens outside of work is a bit heavy-handed. I dunno.

Trouble is, what if it didn't happen out of work? Personally, I've only seen a very tiny bit of the logs, and I doubt I'll get to see any more of them, but if TC and Hanlong accessed the db without authorization from their work computers, then I definitely think their employers have a right to know. Their employers could be held liable, and no one wants that.

It's not anti-cheat, btw...what both of them did is more than likely illegal where they live.

i wonder if hanlong has put this whole event on his linkedin profile!

I personally hope no one goes to employers. Hanlong especially did little compared to what TC seems to have done.

Accessing a secured system without authorization is a crime at the federal level, typically investigated by the FBI (bearing in mind that they will prioritize cases, and game hacks would be toward the bottom of that list).

To the OP, there certainly is a temptation, but you speak as if this precludes people from exorcising judgement, and acting in a way contrary to their initial impulse. I would agree that there are many people who lack the maturity/intelligence/judgement/experience/etc to conduct themselves in this manner, but as a species, I believe we have repeatedly shown that we are capable of much more than knee-jerk impulses to stimulus.

The issue is also confused by systems which can isolate people and obscure the true outcomes of their actions. History is littered with examples of people who felt at the time they were doing the right thing, but to paraphrase, the road to hell can be paved with good intentions.

Before you spout off like some kind of legal expert, please try to have a clue what you are talking about.

fag

I'm certainly not a lawyer, but have worked on these issues before, with federal law enforcement. I also can read, which I put to good use on the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which clearly states:

18 USC ss 1030
"(5)(A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;
(B) intentionally accesses a protected computer without authorization, and as a result of such conduct, recklessly causes damage; or"

To be effected by the law the site would have to conduct interstate commerce or communications. This site qualifies for at least the latter. The game database was altered, which is similar to the situation I had to work with law enforcement on in the past, and was sufficient to fullfill the requirement that the action cause 'reckless damage'.

so I'm not sure what you're getting at... I would be shocked if a lawyer were to come on here and give you a legal opinion, and I'm certainly not claiming to be one. I can't help but think, it's really easy for you to disagree, but you don't provide any information to support your claim that my information is inaccurate.

edit: and just to clarify, you might be right. I'm unaware of any precedents related to this, or conflicting legislation, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But without information to corroborate your claim, your statement lacks credibility.

oh, and this is actually relevant from the USC, it's part of the definitions section of the aforementioned code:

"(8) the term “damage” means any impairment to the integrity or availability of data, a program, a system, or information;"

It is a free game. It does not conduct interstate commerce.
Websites do not qualify as communications at all. This forum is not even included as such.

Damages would require actual monetary amounts required to undo what has been done. Which is 0.

Maybe we could talk if the game code was irreversibly destroyed. A change to a database, this has no damage intent. Perhaps we could talk if the database was completely destroyed but being that every reset the country portion of the database is destroyed anyhow it again leaves us with 0 damage.

No matter if they destroyed the entire game including went and physically destroyed any backup and all of the hardware used to host it, the FBI would not be involved. The FBI has far more pressing matters than small websites. The most that would be involved is local police for the area in which the crime happened.

Also I believe the game is hosted in Canada which means that none of these laws even apply anyhow.

However none of this means that a civil case couldn't be built. In fact there are other matters like Boxcar where I think a civil case is both warranted and possibly required.

yeah, I agree with you on that. My original post pointed out that this is about the lowest rung on the priority ladder as far as law enforcement is concerned, and probably should be when you consider all the other things law enforcement has to deal with :)

In the situation I dealt with this on there were no monetary damages that could be proved, just damage to data integrity by modifying database entries. However, I worked for a fortune 500 company, which would have had a lot more pull with law enforcement, as well as a legal team perusing it, so the priority was a bit higher, and they got results (the perpetrator was fined and given probation). However, there was a lot of foot dragging, and I got the feeling that a lot of pressure was being exerted to get it dealt with. I purely worked on it from a technical point of view, compiling logs and coordinating with agents about technical evidence.

I'm not sure on your question of monetary damages. For many laws there is that requirement, and for civil action you typically have to have some monetary damage to base a judgement on (though moneys are awarded from time to time for 'pain and suffering', my impression is that those cases are few and far between). But there is no mention that monetary damages are required by the section of the code I referenced, and the definition of damages does not mention money at all, purely a disruption of data or information. There are certainly crimes which do not require monetary damages (mail tampering comes to mind), but we're basically getting beyond where I feel I could give any sort of authoritative answer. For those questions I would usually just suggest that someone speak to an attorney, as the answer likely lies in some unrelated court opinion.

No idea on the question of communication, I am assuming that a website which allows private messaging, and hosts forums would be considered a medium for communication, but this is purely an assumption on my part, no idea on the actual legality of that.

In general I do agree with you, Anonymous, and I appreciate the thought out response!

Edit: and 100% on the jurisdiction, though I'm not sure how that would be effected if the intrusion originated in the US. But yeah, I probably should have prefaced my original comment by stating my assumption of US laws applying. I was kinda flashing back to the old e2025 days, when (if I remember correctly) it was all run from texas.