i was just trying to be nice. i apologize for trying to take the high road. and flufftards like you make me regret ever bothering to do that

we should've farmed the fluff out of you guys the second you used harmful spy ops and missile retals instead of trying diplomacy.

its your alliance's incompetent retal policies and insistence of using nuke retals and especially spy ops as retals (that makes it easier to make mistakes) that got you guys killed and farmed.

my "incompetence" was the result of your alliance's dumbass retal policies that was built for failure.

wtf are you talking about. you topfed us through your DNH. we retaled those hits. even detmer realized that #449 was hitting us throughout the temporary dnh while we were trying to sort it out. read his messages that he posted.

a better question is who the hell ran #449? if you want to pin down who's to blame here you should look at him first..

why is he hellbent in creating fluffty relations between LaF/PDM?

if you really want to get to the bottom of this instead of flinging baseless accusations without any evidence, you should look at the trail, and it starts and ends with #449

maybe #449 is some guy you guys recruited recently that played in another alliance and is pushing another alliance's agenda?

maybe #449 is your a PDM vet who is still bitter about LaF and want LaF/PDM relation to heat up?

answer that question first

honestly i like you detmer.

i suggest you reconsider some of your techniques used during our negotiation process. i didn't find you unreasonable at all, like i mentioned elsewhere (and to LaF leaders on the LaF council forum) i found your lack of action to be the problem. i can even show you the LaF private forum posts which i indicated this fact.

and you are right that i wasn't keen on paying you guys back with reps in the end. in the beginning that was what i was trying to suggest but you were too slow and your guys were topfeeding us while it happened (unlike with Sanct), so that's why i took that option off the table. i hope you can understand that.

i do think you have to agree that the fact that #449 was adding fuel to the fire made it worse. imo you guys should've booted him and killed him off, that would've probably moved the relations back the right direction again if that's what you were really interested in (plus he was grabbing all sorts of alliances and being an overall pisser so it would've served your alliance's bests interests anyways).

but all of this would've been easily communicated if we used IRC/ICQ instead of back and forth insite messages that often take up to 24 hours to comprehend (and by that point was outdated because more fluff went down).

detmer: you were the only guy who i didn't talk with on IRC/ICQ. we did this strictly by insite messages.

i don't know why you weren't on ICQ at all.

the speed of IRC/ICQ would've resolved it much quicker, ala what happened with sanct/icn.

instead with the slow ass pace of private messages, it allowed the window of opportunity for both sides to escalate the matter.

i must have forced conspiracy with you detmer in creating a slower than normal messaging mechanism to open the door for escalated tensions to fulfill the master plan!

despite the slow speed of insite messages, you could've done the same and put a temporary DNH like what i did while it gets resolved.

why am i going to offer you land reps when you guys are continuing to top feed us after each fluffing message? that's why i showed you the hits while i ask asking for peace. after 3 times i was tired of dealing with you

the more you try to pin this down as collusion the more farfetched it gets.. unless you guys were conspiring with us to fluff yourself over in acres.

which makes just as little sense.

wtf?

we didn't even grab PDM last reset.

we had a fluffing uNAP. we had a fluffing uNAP to every single fluffing alliance in the game without 1 exception.

how is pacting literally every single alliance on the server a "farm'em,fluff'em,kiss'em policy"?

who the fluff are we farming exactly?

i already wrote that in my long post, and it also proves that you are epic fail at reading comprehension skills.

my fluffing god

your attempt at spinning this is proving my point how people try to spin untruths just to hold on to their fluffing pathetic conspiracy theories, which i also addressed (see strike 1)

no i came back the SOL war reset because h4/pang asked me to help out. i created my country the day the war started.

the next reset (last reset) we had a uNAP between LaF/PDM.

like i said like one gazillion times. this is the first fluffing time i even knew of LaF farming PDM and then DNH-ing them to pretend to have peace. dont you guys ever listen? sheesh

i was in LaF since 1998.

when i retired PDM and LaF were like LDPs and friends. how the fluff would i know about LaF farming the fluff out of PDM and then offering them DNH over and over again?

i didn't even know what jolt was or did i ever play on earth council.

the last time i played it was still 1A on swirve.

since when do you need reasons to do things soviet? ;P

and TAN, i am being serious. i do wish the server changes the way its politics work so its not a toxic place to be

L2Read again. i already addressed this issue. see the part where i told you about LaF's reasoning for pacting this reset, how I wasn't around for the past that you are mentioning so i have zero clue on what the fluff you are talking about.

keep on making yourself look dumber by the second

i dont think mr. inadequate is a proper color, but mr. flaming rainbow should be the color for you.

L2Read n00b. i just made a post saying i'm leaving BECAUSE of the crappy options brought forth to me because of how crappy this server's politics is.

you should ask your alliance leader to sign the pacts and at least attempt to broker peace next time if you really care so much. especially when the other side was very willing to make a fair deal and have shown to do so and even made posts on AT indicating proof of other similar deals he did with other alliances.

at least if you tried and got shot down, then you can go off about your fluffing lame conspiracy theories. otherwise stfu and stop making this game worse than it already is.

and i'm sorry for not being civil with my choice of words now. i don't need to sugar coat anything for you guys because of the stupidity of you flaming homos

like i posted on LaF's forum i already said i wanted to retire after this reset. theorkinman being a total flaming n00b just made me want to quit before the reset is even over. he alone didn't drive me away from this game, he merely accelerated it, like what h4 said earlier.

it's the lameness of the politics of this server that made me realize i was wasting my time in this game.

i'll give you full disclosure of my thoughts this reset. there's not going to be any AT spin to this. if there's anything good or bad that comes out of it, it's your guys problem to clean it up, not mine, so i don't need to hide anything.

for my time in LaF this reset i was the head FA. my job obviously is to sign pacts and try to resolve FA problems. i also thought i could make a difference and try to point this game back in the right direction for all of us.

PDM grabbed 2 of our members first this reset. detmer sent me a message that it was a mistake. i didn't really care or was bothered by it, and told our members to retal, which they did.

mid-reset LaF started to grab everyone who i did not pact this reset. the reason why i did not pact everyone this reset (like what pang did last reset) was there was literally no land last reset. plus if you pact everyone the only way to landgrab is to grab the same 5 untagged countries hundreds of times, which everyone agrees to being detrimental for the server by driving away new players. i figured some landtrading would be beneficial to LaF members and to the health of this game. i did not know they were going to abuse the hell out of various alliances and try to "overwhelm" their retal policy like what PDM mentioned. PDM was not the only one hit this reset, so that's the first part i'm pissed about. despite me saying this 100x, you guys seem to make it out like we were targetting PDM this reset on purpose or some fluff when you know it wasn't true.

this is strike one for alliance server politics, the narrow focus of using selective facts that many people like to make to twist/spin the truth instead of disclosing the full picture. detmer earlier in this thread as well as theorkinman keep on trying to convince the server that LaF was out to get PDM solely this reset.

anyways after that event happened i put LaF into yellow alert knowing that we probably ticked 5 alliances in a span of 2 days.

my second step was to set them all to DNH because i did not want to escalate anything. being overwhelmed FA wise because of those incidents, i had to take a blanket systematic approach to all alliances and then find out their individual concerns.

third step was to notify that they were on DNH and i wanted a pact and asked for their concerns.
ICN just didn't want to get overwhelmed like this ever again. i apologized to them and we signed a pact and i told them our desire to make landtrading work with strict rules on hits per day and maybe a country opt-out clause for those who don't want to participate so these things like what just happened don't happen again. when i was talking to ICN and they knew about our DNH to them, no hits were exchanged between ICN/LaF except for retals.

sanct were just interested in getting their land back for the short term goal of war with SoF and not really caring about long term land trading strategies, we brokered a deal where they got to farm land back from a low defense leader of LaF instead of hitting those hard to break top 10 countries. when i was talking to sanct and they knew about our DNH to them, no hits were exchanged between Sanct/LaF except for retals.

like those alliances i told detmer PDM was on DNH and i offered them a pact for the reset. detmer messaged me with his concern about us always doing this to them, for which i apologized to and i told him i wasn't around during those times so i can't say anything about the past. he didn't like the cycle in which he said LaF always farmed PDM and then asked for a DNH to netgain scott free. my response to him was a multi reset pact so things like this won't happen again.

detmer again turned me down.

unlike other alliances though, the DNH between LaF/PDM was one way. there were hits exchanged from PDM->LaF that weren't retals such as nukes (which for the sake of argument in regards to PDM because of their policy they could be considered retals), harmful spy ops (likewise), but also fresh topfeeds from PDM to our all-explores who never even touched PDM this reset. i didn't care as much for the nukes/ops retal on countries who abused PDM in the first place (because they were the agressors) but the grabbing (and harmful spy ops) of countries who never even touched PDM was what started to make things deteriorate.

the first day that this happened, i told him "what are you doing with that topfeed? let's sign a pact and get this over with"

detmer again didn't agree to this.

the second time it happened, i told him "doesn't seem like you want the pact at all"

to which he responded "consider yourselves will retal".

at this point, i brought up the possibility of war or a farm strike to the LaF council and set us to red alert. we couldn't come to a consensus on the council so we didn't do any actions.

during this time, the harmful spy ops and nukes and topfeeds continued on LaF while we had a one way DNH set on them.

the only mistake to this rule was retaling the wrong country (#594 instead of #449). to that which PDM responded by killing #36 without any FA contact.

there's only one reason why you will kill countries without telling the FA first. PDM could've cleared up with me first and i would've easily agreed to let #594 get his land back from #36 and we'd do our proper retals of close to 30-50 unprovoked harmful spy ops (on top of the 3 unprovoked topfeeds) by #449.

but obviously PDM did not want to take the peaceful options. you notice the recurring trend, every step of the way i offered PDM the olive branch but PDM chose to escalate instead.

strike two for the server's politics. this whole mess i attribute to the fact that we all like to use different retal policies to the point where its a fluffing headache and no one can agree to anything and can't make any logical sense out of everything. i look at the other servers like FFA and the old 1A where our retal policies were mostly similar and tbh the game was much more fun because of it. we have enough legalese irl, why bring it to a game? its like the red tape you get from a bloated corrupt government, fluff you don't need is stuck all over the place.

at this point we had only three options left. farm PDM for the acres back, kill them by FS, or do nothing. you can't possibility tell LaF to sit there and do nothing about this. none of your alliances will do the same, so stop pretending that it was even an option for LaF. you guys have to understand at that point with PDM killing a LaF country without any sort of FA contact that it was an act of war (not like unprovoked harmful spy ops and nuke retals weren't good enough reasons already).

during this time i noticed that RD switched all their governments to tyrannies and dictators. from my best knowledge of their pacts, it seemed like PDM was a very likely target.

this threw a curveball to LaF's plans. and i looked thru all 4 of them and they were lose-lose-lose and lose. this is when i told the council that i wanted to retire because there's no reason why defending your own alliance's sovereign rights should produce 3 results that will unleash the scorn of the whole community. this to me means there's something fundamentally wrong with the political climate of the alliance server and that's why i knew it wasn't worth playing in unless it changes for the better.

1) tell RD to back the fluff off and FS PDM.

this is what would've happened: we look like bullies on AT and we would piss off RD who was prepping to war PDM the whole reset. pissing off 40 or so war prepped countries already stored turns and ready to go off means we probably volunteered to be PDM's replacement and would end up fighting two alliances and be outnumbered.

i know after reading this, this is probably what PDM and anti-LaF people want LaF to do. because LaF getting spanked is what everyone wants right? and i get to be called the worst FA/leader for pissing off two alliances by my crappy actions.

2) tell RD we want to joint FS with them on PDM

if you think what we are facing now is bad in terms of conspiracy theory, what will you think will happen if we do this?

3) farm PDM and hope RD FSes someone else

this is what we ended up doing.

i knew there was no way out except for to do nothing so we don't look like "colossal fags", and instead look like "colossal pansies". honestly from the anti-LaF camp, you are suggesting we just wave the white flag to PDM and back down, because that would've been the only option.

this is the strike three and the final straw.

as an alliance leader, i refuse to play in a server were the politics force you to not defend your alliance for the sake of keeping other people not want to make up conspiracy theories or flame the hell out of you.

this is what h4 was referring to when "game politics" is the reason why i'm leaving.

Are you sure you want to delete your country?
This cannot be undone.

done.

don't bother contacting me for FA matters related to LaF, i'm not going to read them anymore.

bye

thank you orkin for reminding me this game is a collosal waste of my time. i would've figured someone like dagga (to be fair he's pretty tame recently) doing this, but apparently you beat him to the punch

you know, i should just quit and retire from this game. maybe you guys prefer to deal with the previous LaF leaders who don't even bother to communicate and address concerns.

i feel like i'm just wasting my time even attempting to

1) offer DNH and pacts that would be good for all sides
2) try to get to the bottom of the situations based on the facts

i don't want to play a game where all the community is capable of doing is flinging baseless insults and throw around conspiracy theories just to piss people off.

f this, i quit back in 2005 because this server was getting lame, and i came back and its lamer than ever. at least i thought the community and devs are close knit so i figured i can suggest some ideas to make this game more enticing again, but instead we still get flaming idiots and no one really listening to my concerns.

i have better uses of my time. i was asked as a favor to help lead LaF again, i didn't want to do this even. i should've deleted and ignored that email by LaFfers asking me to come back to fill gaps in leadership. did it for 6 years already, no need to agitate myself again when this isn't even what i want.

cya

orkin: whatever you said is fine after i sort it out with detmer. i don't need to condemn RD for making us miss out on more acres until i can get through to detmer first ;)

detmer: that's the problem you took experiences with old LaF leaders as indication on what I WOULD do to you. i know sanct felt that boat too and they started off with some strong words to me. after they realized i wasn't the same as any of the old LaF leaders, they quickly worked towards a resolution with me. and that's just one example, i worked out uNAP deals with 4 alliances that week while pulling in a 80 hour work shift. i apologize for not being as proactive about my intentions to clear up any misunderstanding or ill concieved notions about LaF but you have to understand from my position that i was fluffing burnt out that week.

you could've given me what you thought was going to be fair to both sides (land reps, fa reps) and signed a pact. but you apparently chose to think i was the same as the previous LaF leaders who you dealt with. i apologize on their behalf if you thought that way, but i still don't think it's fair for you to treat me like that because i'm a different person and i operate differently...

stop polluting the thread orkin, i'm addressing detmer here.

i'm sifting through all the messages that went back and forth detmer right now. i'll post them right after this for the proof of what went on.

the general summary is i set PDM to DNH on 2/17, offered a pact, he said no on 2/18 because he hates how we always hit them then get DNH without repercussions, i told him on 2/18 for a long term pact so it won't happen again, then we got topfed by PDM a bunch on 2/18 so i asked him if he wanted the DNH or not since they were topfeeding us, then they nuked us, then detmer told me they set us to will retal. then the mass topfeeds/spy ops started coming and it started to escalate.

tell me how the fluff did i coordinate this exactly again TheORKINMan?

i offered DNH and pact like 3 times, he could've accepted it all 3 times. if i had some evil plan to farm the snot out of pdm without repercussions why would i ever offer a pact to pdm? everytime it escalated was because not only did he say no to me PDM members either 1) topfed us 2) nuked us 3) harmful spy op us. like i said 100 times, PDM started the first 2 hits, we did the next bunch of hits, then after that i asked for peace, it was never accepted but escalated BY PDM at that point until the farm incident.

no you got that wrong.

i set you to DNH and asked you for a pact on 2/17. you were the one that ignored me and sent 5 nukes at LT.

and i already explained in the other thread that it was my mistake. i retaled 594 and hours later i get harmful spy ops. i just assumed it was RoR, because i haven't touched any other country for days.

it was an honest mistake, and i apologized already. i retroactively did the news check now and i realized i got the wrong country... but why would that matter anyways? it was still a PDM one

because you killed a LaF country trying to retal harmful spy ops. i already apologized that it was the wrong PDM country that was retaled.

the original "instigation of farming" had nothing to do with PDM specifically. LaF applied it to more than one alliance as i have told you many times, and i was pulling in 80 hour weeks because of our servers not being stable (so i had to program out emergency hotfixes).

was not fun. i tried to work through all the alliances, INCLUDING yours detmer.

remember this message?

From: hanlong
To: Detmer
Subject: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Are we friends?
Date: Feb 17th, 22:24
Message Body:
i set you to DNH right now, but you want to sign a pact so we can make this official?

you could've said yes to that, told me what you wanted (like sanct wanted their acres back so we let them farm a LaF leader's country) and we'd be all happy and done.

i just wish you weren't busy at that time honestly detmer when i was in a deal making frenzy with sanct/icn/wof/etc.

i would've probably let you farm some acres back off one of our leaders (so you won't feel the whole "farming without repercussions" effect and we'd sign a uNAP and everything will be happy times"

except now we got idiots giving me the latest tip on who actually killed John F Kennedy

i think you have a point, except for one hole.

do we control the actions of PDM members too? let's take this conspiracy theory to test. why would PDM be active harmful spy opping and nuking us to escalate the retals also? is this some sort of 3 way plan between RD PDM and LaF to give mass entertainment to the masses?

*high fives detmer and mr. whatever color is the head now*

they got us now!

damn it, with your n00b actions LT i have to let PDM win the moral victory on this one :(

i rather pillage sisters and that ilk than moms

not my style

go EDge?

yes you got spy opped unprovoked by that PDM country. i realize that.. but minor details ;P

well harmful spy ops were never used as retals except by PDM, so the only way for me to figure out and do proper FA in regards to calculating what is valid or not is to use networth deltas.

about rockman's country he had two incidents where his country got tech stolen:


Feb 23, 2011 6:08 PM
10.2 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1350 points of technology!

10.2 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1348 points of technology!

10.2 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1348 points of technology!

10.2 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1348 points of technology!

10.2 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1349 points of technology!


Feb 25, 2011 1:28 PM
9.3 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1808 points of technology!

9.3 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1809 points of technology!


both point to this:


for the 3/23 incident:
Name Clan Relation Latest Earliest Count
Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm Feb 23/11 8:02:26 AM Feb 23/11 7:52:26 AM 3

for the 3/25 incident:
Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm Feb 25/11 4:12:19 AM Feb 23/11 7:52:26 AM 4


so of the 3 i researched all point to #449.

so you are actually legal now de1i?

you know what's a good indicator of "too much or too little" for d?

your expenses.

you can carry 5M turrets on 20k easily and be in teh green, but 5M turrets on 8k land puts you in the red.

if you stock to get 20M jets on 8k land just to hit a 40k guy on 15M turrets, you are just doing it to topfeed someone because your country doesn't have any future for it having that much military on 8k land

LOL cuz's there a swear word integrated into wrist watch (without the space and removing the wris and ch)

gotta tweak that swear word filter devs!

lime: i'm not saying arranged war is the way to go.

i already said in previous posts throughout AT that i think personally arranged wars is lame =) it takes a lot of the fun out of wars.

i meant the only way to make clear what what RD did in this case is to have only arranged wars. i think the fact that you have to make wars this clear defeats the very sole purpose of enjoying wars. i'm not claiming that's the right way to go though. you have every justifiable right to war PDM for your own reasons on retal policy with a surprise war (especially if you aren't like SoF were you are 100% confident you can win if it was arranged).

and detmer: i don't think its fair for you guys to decide when RD wants to war or not. just like i can never convince PDM to do exactly what i want them to do. people have always for the sake of being occupied with something else delayed actions to a later time.

i think that timing aspect is the mastery part.

if you stonewall too early/fast you end up getting another guy in your alliance killed instead.

you have to reel them in at the right rate and fail and gain pop at the best times.

it's an art form almost and like all art forms, it is hard to master =)

i claim moral victory for LaF too because you are dropping policy out of this ;)