can somebody direct me to this information? I know it was changed sometime ago so that maximum gains occur when attacking country is whithin +/- 10% NW of the defending country, but what are the returns beyond that?

thanks.

I was wondering the same thing, just got back after many years. Played in express to try to get the hang of things again. But cant seem to get the hang of grabing (the returns are not worth the cost of the attack)

you will not find it all in one place and some of the information is just flat wrong but as a start...

go to announcements and see the "repost of new Lg rules" thread
go to announcements and see "new gov type dictatorship" thread

as you have no doubt noticed the reports you receive are wildly inaccurate things like you lost 146 acres and 3000 buildings(stolen)

the admins are aware of these problems and about four months ago they were working on a fix
we are still waiting

the wiki says that GDI affects LG returns
not sure if that is true

finally you need to understand ghost acres so that you will know your return from hits on tiny countries
so read everything on ghost acres
too numerous to mention here but do a search under options for qz's statements on ghost acres
the admins encourage hitting small guys with ghost acres

finally you need to understand the admins hate it when you hit a country that grew faster than you did

so there is a huge penalty against hitting higher NW countries
i am not sure why the admins put such a premium on fast growth but do not bother hitting low-defense countries which are bigger than you because the returns are insanely small
instead triple tap a tiny country
you will get a lot more land

hope this helps

as per usual lincoln posts information that is wrong

he's trying to say something

warster never offers any help merely spews short bursts of bile

I'm not aware of any bugs related to the gains reported on the war page.

GDI does affect LG returns.

Ghost acres do not directly increase the total land gained from smaller countries. They simply cause the smaller country to lose less acres.

Your statement about hitting higher NW countries is not correct.

He did offer help. He essentially instructed people to ignore your advice, which actually, is quite helpful.

lincoln, with everything u said in ur first post shows you have no idea how to grab or the pro's and con's of bottomfeeding, midfeeding or topfeeding

bottomfeeding isnt about getting MORE land per hit, its about getting basically free land at almost no risk, and not needing high amounts of Jets

Midfeeding is always the best way to make good land , downside is u will lose jets and defense every hit

Topfeeding is always bad idea on any server even before the changes, why?? cos if u do it on a solo server, the person u hit will just farm you to get their land back

seriously slagpit? you really are not aware of this continuing problem? that is surprising


warster are you truly unaware that there are large targets with no offensive fire power and little or no potential to acquire firepower?

there are numerous large countries on express with no offense and not enough turns to get any, of course you do not play express which is why you are surprised to hear of this strategy

Lincoln - the key to your strategy is to topfeed explorers who are much larger in landsize than you. What does this say about the effectiveness of your strategy?

slagpit
i was hit yesterday and got the following message

a country from (X) invaded your lands
you lost

234(419)acres gained
655 buildings(348 stolen)

when i looked at my country i had lost 234 acres but no buildings were missing

this happens frequently and was first reported many months ago

as to my statement about hitting high NW countries, you say it is not correct? there is a penalty that is undisputed so i can only assume you do not consider it a large penalty, that is subjective. or perhaps you do not consider it a penalty but merely a lessened return. whatever you call it, however you phrase it, fast growing countries are protected from countries that take their time an invest in LG potential.

rockman,

all it says is that he grew faster than i did, while i was investing hundreds of turns in weapons and mil strat tech, he was gobbling up land and getting fat.

He has 12k acres at $16M NW
i have 5k acres at $6M NW

now that i am fully teched and fully armed, he is as helpless as a newborn.

why should the rules protect him from an LG?
why, oh why??

lincoln, i know more about grabbing and retaling then u will ever know, i've spent my whole earth career of 13 years running the retal department of basically every alliance i've played in,

topfeeding has been around a long time, its nothing new, and ive done it on plenty of occasions

what you dont understand is the goal of the current land grabbing rules is to get people of equal size to hit each other,

and please dont tell me that a 16 mil country on 12k cant get offensive to retal someone of 6 mil, its very easy to convert defense into offense if u want

Lincoln - have you heard of this thing called the public market? It allowed you to purchase techs that you have not produced yourself.

if they are large in land they can easily acquire the needed offense,

if their net is based on tech or military they can easily switch it to offense if needed

warster, you have lectured me for months with constant reminders of what a great player you are and how much more knowledgable you are than i will ever be

and yet and yet

the first time we ever play in the same server and the same set your country is...
well let's just say you are not proud of it

why is that?


rockman, you can buy all the military tech you want, that does not reduce the penalty for hitting up. it actually multiplies the penalty relative to what the return should have been
and consequently bottom feeding is actually even more attractive than hitting up with mil strat tech than without it
i am sure you see that now

but express is the only solo server where humanitarians allow big top feeding, so it matters to only a few players

the admins announced that their intention is to encourage midlevel hitting and discourage bottom feeing and topfeeding
because express is the only server where humanitarians allow up to 10x hits, it is the only solo server where topfeeding and bottom feeding are currently possible

look at the hitting stats
bottom feeding is huge, midlevel not so much and topfeeding is dead

the admins announced intention is not being realized

the means of achieving the announced intent are obvious

lincoln , the only server that we both play is primary

which i spend a whole 5 minutes on , every 3 days and i dont care about it, i play there to stuff around and unlike you i'm not scared to say what my country is


Not once have i said i'm a great player or a great netter,
i'm a good retaler and decent at warring,
you can ask anyone who has ever played with me, my goal in this game is to protect the alliance i'm in, nothing more

and like always you didnt prove me wrong, you just went with lame insults

kmwi- as for max gains as a tyr with max miltary strat, best to be within 2% of targets net, u should get around 17.5% of the targets land, i dont know what the exact cutoff is

all ive seen listed is that u get 10% land( plus ghost lands) as a non tyr at the same net, at what point it drops i dont know, i'll see if i can find out for u

I totally dont get your point lincoln

"bottom feeding is huge" - Always has been, and its actually less than it used to be due to the game changes.

"Midlevel not so much" - Its actually fairly common. Its just if someone midlevel they tend to hit once and get a fluff load of land and then expects to get hit back, while someone who bottom feeds hits numerous times and gets fluff all. So that accentuates that bottom feeding seems more used.

"topfeeding is dead" - Is correct, cause nw is based on what a country has. Meaning the majority of the time a small country is unable to break a larger country. And when military plays a significant role in nw, so it makes 100% sense for their to be minimal topfeeding.


What is wrong with countries hitting countries of similar nw. It makes sense that it is rewarded the highest since the countries are of similar standing. And the game mechanics rewards that to promote an even game play.

warster
my record of never insulting anyone who did not insult me first is intact


Drinks
with the demise of the 2x protection offered by GDI, bottom feeding which is encouraged by ghost acreage is at an all time high
it was always prevalent but now it is pandemic
the NW protection is now offered by ghost acreage not GDI
that is true of express but not primary because primary has active humanitarians

midlevel feeding has gone way down because of the new GDI since people do not risk retal9iation but just claim the ghost acres

my point about top feeding only includes that small percentage of countries that have invested the effort in growing a large offense
we ask techers to specialize, we ask cashers to specialize, we tell indies to specialize, we tell farmers to specialize
all of those strats are rewarded for specializing

but when somebody specializes in offense we punish them by artificially, drastically and arbitrarily diminishing their return on their investment

my point is simply that this capricious treatment is not consistent with the treatment of any other strat and is bad for the game

Lincoln - we don't "ask" the strategies to specialize, they do so because the game's equations make it most optimal to specialize in production of one type of good.

And contrary to what you think, specializing in offense is not a strategy, it is merely a cover for an idiot like you who lacks the ability to get both offense and defense at the same time. What you want is the ability to attack someone and not get any defense, and not get penalized for your lack of defense. In other words, you want to not be penalized for your lack of skill. Sorry, but this game isn't for you.

rockman
i appreciate your efforts as a mod
please do not take this discussion personally
what you say actually makes some sense with respect to five of the six servers


is it not obvious that the game's equations and rules are changeable and that the current rule set is primarily a function of the current admins' personalities?
seriously, you do not get that?
when i say we ask strats to specialize, i mean that the admins have selected equations which reward specialization.
it is not hard to imagine arbitrary and capricious rules which would punish farmers and techers from specializing, just as the topfeed penalty capriciously limits the growth of offensive specialists


perhaps i understand that better than you because i have seen how the express suggestions in rules changes have reflected enshula's, dantzig's, gregg's and my personalities and how the ultimate decision as to which rules are accepted and which rules are rejected is almost entirely a reflection of slagpit's.
changes suggested by enshula were different in character from those suggested by dantzig from those suggested by me.


you say that specializing in offense is not a strategy and then you get personal
i see no reason to get personal, you seem bright enough
i say you simply have not yet grasped the vagaries of express
since you do not play express, it is hardly surprising that many of the nuances are foreign
express is a different animal from any other server because DR lasts for 20% of the set, because most of the hitting in the set is confined to a small time window, because you can store 40% of your turns, because of the unusual spy rules, and because most big offenses are not allowed to function for the last five percent of the set. in express it is possible to be invulnerable without having much defense or to be an offensive specialist for 358 turns and then become fully defensed in three seconds
you clearly had not considered that possibility


slagpit has gone with no defense numerous times and you would not publicly call him an idiot
do not let your conceptions from other servers lead you into making such silly statements about express
there are plenty of times in express when offensive specialization is not stupid, it is in fact the best decision possible

e.g. if one can manage to get into DR on Friday afternoon with most of the turns in storage and without a large loss of land, it is entirely possible to get a high NW without any defense

without the capricious rule it would then be possible to get large and productive very quickly and then acquire all the necessary defense in a matter of under half an hour

so please let us refrain from insulting one another particularly about topics which we have not fully considered

let us simply remove the arbitrary topfeed penalty for the good game and watch as the complexity and enjoyment of the game increase.

The topfeed penalty is there to balance out the bottomfeeding penalty. Are you suggesting that we get rid of both of them?

no

If u got rid of the topfeeding penalty it would just result in idiots with all jets suiciding on people way above their nw. Then the huge country having to waste a fluff load of their turns in order to grab the country 20 times to get their land back.

funny that i never insulted lincoln in this thread at all yet i insulted him first


and yet again lincoln u still havent made a post that was helpful to the person who asked the question

rockman,

Thank you for your question which i considered overnight.
Your point that the admins have addressed bottom feeding but not topfeeding is well taken. Your point highlights the inconsistency inherent in awarding ghost acreage for one type but not for the balancing rule.

SIMPLE SOLUTION
Reward ghost acres for top feeds as well.

The admins recognize that the bottomfeed penalty presents a problem. They solve that problem with ghost acres.
The solution leaves us with a situation where both midfeeders and bottomfeeders are not penalized but topfeeders still are.

Ghost acres will defend the fast-growing netters from their decision not to invest in weapons tech while still allowing those who do to benefit from the investment.

rewarding ghost acres for topfeeds will keep the server's treatment consistent with the treatment for bottomfeeds.

thanks again, rockman

lincoln - once again you show your lack of knowledge of how the game works

there is no ghost acres penalty for topfeeding. Ghost acre gains for topfeeding are just fine.

edit: providing proof

Apr 23/11 3:18:16 PM PS TIN MAN (#255) (STONES) My Game Profile (#419) (LaF) 715 A (+559 A)

That hit was done by a 1.1 mil networth dictator on a 14k acre 2.1 million networth country. Seems like the ghost acres on that attack were just fine.

when express restarts i will show you the problem

rockman,
i will just point out a few things you seem to have missed

the fact that the offensive country was an I factored into the result, i hope you know that
but if you do then you are being disingeuous with your post

the fact that the target was only twice the size of the hitter factors into the result
hitting a country only twice your networth can hardly be considered topfeeding

you neglected to mention whether GDI was involved in the result

and you reverted to insults when the errors were yours
all unfortunate for what i had hoped would be a thoughtful honest discussion

a fair test would be a hit by a non dictator or tyrant on a country 9.5 times the size of the hitter

such hits are dangerous in servers other than express becuase you do not have enough turns to grow ten times bigger than you were at login.

which is why i suggested we wait until express restarts
but if you want to run that test just so you can familiarize yourself with the full power of the penalty, feel free

Lincoln - I know it factors into the result, thats why I mentioned it. The reason I didn't mention GDI is that it doesn't factor into the result. And you don't consider hitting someone twice your networth to be topfeeding?

And you think I'm the one who made errors?

If you want thoughtful honest discussion, then you cannot take part. You'll have to watch from the sidelines while other people are honest and thoughtful, because you've not shown the ability to be either one.

Of you could just take the dictator's building gains and divide it by 1.32

Or is that too difficult for you to do?

You do know what +32% building gains means, right? It means you gain 32% more buildings. Just an FYI.

i suggest you go read enshula's comments on that topic

had you done that, you would not have embarassed yourself yet again

i regret you argue so strongly from such an ignorant position

You're the one who thinks GDI affects landgains.

I retract my statement about you seeming bright enough. You have thoroughly disabused me of that hopeful notion.

how about u quote the WHOLE statement lincoln



GDI rules only apply to GDI on express and Primary, and not GDI on other servers i believe

the problem with this whole thread is that the question on returns was a general question, wasnt limited to one server or another

can we get back to the question at hand and can u both take your pissing contest to another thread

lol

i tell people where to find the requested info and then he comes in with bilbous insults. Finally, having started the insults and having had to confess he is not actually very good at LGing, he says can we get back to the discussion

pomposity thy name is warter

(you're off the hook, warster...)

the links u gave lincoln do not give the information he wanted

please quote where i said i wasnt good at grabbing?????

please quote where i insulted you in this thread


???

now if you cant be helpful in this thread please dont post,

actually answer the question or i'll start deleting posts that dont answer the question at hand


i'm sick and tired of u turning threads into a platform for you to post your crap about issues you have about things in the game,

post them where they belong - express or bugs and suggestions

it is a shame warter can not even remember his own posts let alone the nuances of the game

how is that an insult???

and where in that does it say i'm not a good land grabber????

warter you never help anyone, he asked where to find the info

i told him

when you say you know more about this game than i do that is an horrific insult

and as you have never seen me grab you cant comment, tho i can comment on your grabbing in express and its ok but its nothing special

look at your pathetic primary country

no good grabs no good anything
probably will not make top 100

please

no you didnt lincoln, you gave him links to changes to the dict government, and new rules for landgrab


NEITHER effect land returns, only Ghost acres which is a seperate topic

he wanted to know about the different ranges of networth and what the returns are, Nothing you have posted helped in any of that

LOL and a primary country that has spent most of the reset ABing people who got greedy, i dont play to net

and if you are so great why dont you message me your country in primary