Seems that bots are not using the markets :/

They are working ok, just the programming changed. I believe they are programmed to put goods on at around the average price, rather then mostly random now.

hmm

There's a bug where the bots can stop if one of them gets the 20 A bonus at the wrong time. As far as I can tell this was always possible even with the old bot code. I plan to fix it soon.

They have several different pricing algorithms that can be used: average, max, current, etc.

The range at which they are posting stuff seems more linear then previous. It could also be the lower quantity of bots is changing the way the market is flowing. Stuff is being bought and sold, so none of the symptoms of the mass amounts of bots being broken are apparent however.

Bots are broken now, I think they went down late last night.

how do you know when they are down ?

They stop buying stuff as soon as they go down, but players still buy stuff, so that is a bit harder to tell. You can definitively tell when all sales to the market stop, but since it takes 3-5 hours for stuff to hit the market, you cant really tell until the 6 hour mark ish from that.

looks like you are correct, silly bots

Should be running now.

Working great!

Down again ; (

It wasn't down again

not down, but not the working bots we are used to. Food, Oil much more expensive now. :(

Bots don't interact with the oil market.

Oil is pricey

@Troy, there are less bots producing food (Which typically in ffa, are the only food producers). Once some people started going full out and either needing it for military or for stocking, the bot production was falling temporarily short.

Is it different? My understanding is that the old bot code had 20% farmers just like the current code.

less total bots now though? :/

Yes. Food market is inflated. Around $15-$20 higher.

$20-25 now..

And no one is stocking yet..

I think its also a change because the Techer bots will be stocking food, and thus buying a lot more food than normal.

Yes, what bug said is correct. I would expect the food supply to go slightly up because the farmer bots play with better fundamentals but food demand to go up due to bot techers stocking.

which is gunna suck a lot actually, because they wont destock via the public, they will just keep buying and then sell onto private..

I want the old bots back :(

Bots can destock off the public market.

I mean as in selling their stocked food, like some of these techers may end up having 3-4b bushels..

They are going to sell on private for 35, no way they will sell on public for a sellable price, if they do someone is gunna make some serious bank because they will be selling for $15 per bushel just to get them all to move in enough time, and buy what ever they can.. which will be nothing because the market in FFA is always empty at the end once the players start destocking..

That's not how it works. Here's an example for a theo techer from the last round of express:

[2024-07-07 07:48:33] Doing destocking actions
[2024-07-07 07:48:34] Market history for food: {"low_price":"37","high_price":"39","total_units_sold":"52806127","total_sales":"2049619529","avg_price":38.81,"no_results":false}
[2024-07-07 07:48:34] Estimated public bushel sell price is 38
[2024-07-07 07:48:34] Country has expensive bushels on market
[2024-07-07 07:48:34] Country plans to recall bushels because the sell price is too high
[2024-07-07 07:48:34] Market history for t_mil: {"low_price":"1454","high_price":"1454","total_units_sold":"14722","total_sales":"21405788","avg_price":1454,"no_results":false}
[2024-07-07 07:48:35] Attempting to dump bushel stock...
[2024-07-07 07:48:35] Turns of bushels to keep is: 242
[2024-07-07 07:48:35] Current private market food price is 29
[2024-07-07 07:48:35] Selling bushels on public is expected to be better than private
[2024-07-07 07:48:36] Update Advisor for market recall of goods or tech
[2024-07-07 07:48:36] 7 Turns - Recalled goods $2B ($+781k) 34.2M Bu0 API: 3
[2024-07-07 07:48:36] --- SELL Public: 33.8M food @ $38
[2024-07-07 07:48:36] 6 Turns - Put goods on Public Market $2B ($+260k) 458k Bu0 API: 2
[2024-07-07 07:48:36] Done dumping bushel stock


Demo techer example:

[2024-07-07 06:44:05] Doing destocking actions
[2024-07-07 06:44:06] Market history for food: {"low_price":"40","high_price":"42","total_units_sold":"29012359","total_sales":"1198104822","avg_price":41.3,"no_results":false}
[2024-07-07 06:44:06] Estimated public bushel sell price is 39
[2024-07-07 06:44:06] Country has expensive bushels on market
[2024-07-07 06:44:06] Country plans to recall bushels because the sell price is too high
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Attempting to dump bushel stock...
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Turns of bushels to keep is: 258
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Current private market food price is 39
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Not selling bushels on public for reason: public price too low (must be $1 better than private)
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Update Advisor for market recall of goods or tech
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] 7 Turns - Recalled goods $2.1B ($+753k) 38.3M Bu0 API: 3
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] --- SELL Private Market: 37.8M food $3.5B ($+1.5B)
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Done dumping bushel stock
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Decision on attempting public market bushel reselling: yes
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Current public market food price is 37
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] --- BUY Public: 3.9M food @ $37 $3.4B ($-144M)
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] --- SELL Private Market: 3.9M food $3.6B ($+152M)
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Tried: m_bu95946065@37, ; Money: 3550004418 Cost: 3550004405
[2024-07-07 06:44:09] Done with bushel reselling

I'm assuming the oil prices are 'higher' because of less production once people noticed ffo and oil destock as we know it is toast lol

[quote poster=Slagpit; 52908; 1040049]That's not how it works. Here's an example for a theo techer from the last round of express:

[2024-07-07 07:48:33] Doing destocking actions
[2024-07-07 07:48:34] Market history for food: {"low_price":"37","high_price":"39","total_units_sold":"52806127","total_sales":"2049619529","avg_price":38.81,"no_results":false}
[2024-07-07 07:48:34] Estimated public bushel sell price is 38
[2024-07-07 07:48:34] Country has expensive bushels on market
[2024-07-07 07:48:34] Country plans to recall bushels because the sell price is too high
[2024-07-07 07:48:34] Market history for t_mil: {"low_price":"1454","high_price":"1454","total_units_sold":"14722","total_sales":"21405788","avg_price":1454,"no_results":false}
[2024-07-07 07:48:35] Attempting to dump bushel stock...
[2024-07-07 07:48:35] Turns of bushels to keep is: 242
[2024-07-07 07:48:35] Current private market food price is 29
[2024-07-07 07:48:35] Selling bushels on public is expected to be better than private
[2024-07-07 07:48:36] Update Advisor for market recall of goods or tech
[2024-07-07 07:48:36] 7 Turns - Recalled goods $2B ($+781k) 34.2M Bu0 API: 3
[2024-07-07 07:48:36] --- SELL Public: 33.8M food @ $38
[2024-07-07 07:48:36] 6 Turns - Put goods on Public Market $2B ($+260k) 458k Bu0 API: 2
[2024-07-07 07:48:36] Done dumping bushel stock


Demo techer example:

[2024-07-07 06:44:05] Doing destocking actions
[2024-07-07 06:44:06] Market history for food: {"low_price":"40","high_price":"42","total_units_sold":"29012359","total_sales":"1198104822","avg_price":41.3,"no_results":false}
[2024-07-07 06:44:06] Estimated public bushel sell price is 39
[2024-07-07 06:44:06] Country has expensive bushels on market
[2024-07-07 06:44:06] Country plans to recall bushels because the sell price is too high
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Attempting to dump bushel stock...
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Turns of bushels to keep is: 258
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Current private market food price is 39
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Not selling bushels on public for reason: public price too low (must be $1 better than private)
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Update Advisor for market recall of goods or tech
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] 7 Turns - Recalled goods $2.1B ($+753k) 38.3M Bu0 API: 3
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] --- SELL Private Market: 37.8M food $3.5B ($+1.5B)
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Done dumping bushel stock
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Decision on attempting public market bushel reselling: yes
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Current public market food price is 37
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] --- BUY Public: 3.9M food @ $37 $3.4B ($-144M)
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] --- SELL Private Market: 3.9M food $3.6B ($+152M)
[2024-07-07 06:44:08] Tried: m_bu95946065@37, ; Money: 3550004418 Cost: 3550004405
[2024-07-07 06:44:09] Done with bushel reselling [/quote]

i'm assuming the private market price of 39 is a coding error that has been fixed ?

express has different selling price..

so.. what your saying is that they will end up dumping to private to jump..

Right, express base PM food price is $32. A demo with high mil tech can sell bushels for $39 on the PM.

I'm saying bots can sell food on the public market or the private market when destocking, just as human players do.

Im just gunna add with some others here..

These new bots are so fluff for FFA..

Also the bots are down again..

Aye, they went down yesterday evening. I meant to post.

Cool, calling them "so fluff" is incredibly helpful and actionable.

Alright, so for FFA they are hard to comprehend. They act alone and more like normal players, however that has never been the goal of ffa bots, there is almost 2000 of them..

The new style upsets the market so much that most strategies will have to solely produce their entire NW jump because there is no potential for stocking. I suppose we will have to adjust how to play to get the most out of it, it just hurts when the bots play and destabilise the entire market by either over producing or over purchasing.. they don't have the ability to make a decision like a player of holding turns rather than buying $300 food, or not teching and selling standard techs for $500 less than the current SO (because ave prices say so).

As far as I am aware they have no ability to use SO's either correct?

Some of the market problems are caused by the bots crashing which I hope to fix over the weekend. I also think that there are still too many bots on FFA. As of right now according to eestats:

132 bots have >= 1 DR
1359 bots have 0 DR

I clicked on the bot with the most land and it hasn't been grabbed a single time: https://eestats.lafamiglia-ee.eu/ffa/country/1572

Can you explain what "destabilize the market" means? Bots also do have the ability to store turns if food prices are too high and they have the ability to price based on market history, including average prices.

To answer the DR question, since the bots werent buying for a while, many of my countries werent attacking. Also previously, indy bots only had half the land built, while techer bots had very low land, so those targets were never worth grabbing. I wouldnt mind an indy build if that has been resolved (Ill do a couple ops later and check)

To answer the DR question, since the bots werent buying for a while, many of my countries werent attacking. Also previously, indy bots only had half the land built, while techer bots had very low land, so those targets were never worth grabbing. I wouldnt mind an indy build if that has been resolved (Ill do a couple ops later and check)

There are hundreds of bots that have been grabbed 0 times over the whole round and we're a month in. So far the actionable change that I can make is to reduce the bot count. I'm not sure what to do beyond that.

you know that people don't grab off strat because of the changes to lands gained right?

There is absolutely 0 reason for anyone to run cashers in ffa, and thus those bots will never get hit unless someone really wants to rainbow for more gains in land.

Bots in ffa are not land farms like in Alliance/Express. They are the major source of NW through market sales/manipulation. so that is why they are not hit as much.

Absolutely no one who plays FFA has the time to smash out 16 500k acre FFO's, but maybe we would smash out some 100kA techers or a handful of FFOs..

Slag, you have to remember that people play each server for different things which is why the bot changes for FFA made no sense, and yes we have to get used to it, how ever you've basically stopped most people interacting with the bots in any way, finding the correct strat has become harder for those who are unaware so that will limit how many people grab anyway, but the market changes are going to crash the markets for those who are used to a level of stability, ensuring their goods/tech are brought while also allowing a decent level of market resellability.

Here's how you can find a bunch of bot farmers: https://imgur.com/a/g3ouuNv . The first 60 on the list currently have 0 DR. If you're saying that FFA players can't do that then I really don't know what to say in response. It's effectively impossible for me to make any meaningful changes for this server then.

no I'm saying is that bar myself, no one on this server has been using the bots for land in a lot of resets.

Most people run to 100k and that is the absolute max.

Atm there is one guy running FFO's at 100k acres, and one with 127k on a self farmed country.

meaningful change is one thing, I guess as one of the guys who this set didn't bother to run a multi-strat string I am stuck now with a tech market that is probably gunna be a mess.

Its all lessons learned I suppose.

Slag, Bug is correct. In FFA most players tend to run techers or oilers. It is not worth running Indy since the only military resource that tends to be consumed is jets, and there is a hard limit on how many players need. Casher is something a few people do, and now with the food price going all whack, maybe next set we will see a lot of farmers. But right now, unless the bot is doing the same strat you are, it wont be grabbed.

What is the DR level of the monarchies that are techers, how many times have they been hit? I think that is a truer representation of the targets players go for.

I don't mind the changes, it makes the game harder in a different way, but I did prefer the bots the way they were before. Everytime there is a major price swing in items for a short time period (especially when bots go down for a bit), all the bots are smarter and change their prices to match the new price and double down. This just makes the market swing really hard, and it needs hundreds of billions to make it swing back, where before it was just a spike or drop in price that would average out in short order.

I think the amount of bots is fine, and the programming of bots is fine too, we just gotta get used to how they now act.

One thing I would love, is if the bots did get jets, and did random PS's on players. It would force everyone to stock some turrets, and would also make a lot more consumable military units, which will open up resellers, and Indy strats again. Our NWs wouldnt be as good as previously, but it would be a lot more fun.

As of this post, you can buy a troop, jet, or turret cheaper than 1 bushel of food ($89 per bushel)

You should see the following general market trends on a server without any big wars:

1) Tech prices will get very high quickly and will slowly fall over the round
2) Food prices start cheap, will peak in the middle, and will slowly fall for the rest of the round
3) Military prices bottom out in the middle of the round and will rise in the end of the round.

That's just based on how the game is designed. The bots have good fundamentals and follow supply and demand principles when interacting with the public market so that's what you should expect with the latest style of bots.

You guys are saying stuff like the market prices are wrong. If they are wrong then you can resell and make a profit, right? Food is expensive right now because there is high demand. If I forced the bots to sell food for $40 then the public market would be empty of food for any reasonable price. There was $7.3 B spent on troops over the last 24 hours compared to $280 B spent on food. Without any major wars, I would expect food to be very expensive and for military to be very cheap for this time of the round. I'm also told that human players don't often pick CI. Why are low military prices a problem then? I'm also told that farmer is a very common strategy for humans. Why are high food prices a problem then?

For FFA it is very easy to change the number of bots. That is a setting that is specific for each server. It is also possible to change the strategy makeup of the bots. If you guys like to farm rainbows and don't like how the bots "mess up" the market then I can add more rainbows to the server. That's no problem. But so far we aren't communicating that well and I still don't quite understand what the problem is.

Ok, I found a hint. You guys aren't really buying bushels using standing orders. I guess that your countries are removed from typical supply and demand forces (for whatever reason).

here is your problem in misunderstanding FFA:

"You should see the following general market trends on a server without any big wars:"

FFA is not like any other server that is played.

Honestly if you did not know that then you have been mistaken in your understanding of FFA the entire time.

Human players make NW from bots by exploiting them not for land, but for market manipulations.

Also I'd love to know how much of the current market movement is from bots rather than players, where as last set it was about 50/50, now its clear the bots are buying a lot more stuff in general than before.

But this is the way it is here now and I suppose we will have to adjust to just being alliance sever with more countries rather than what we have been accustomed to.

I don't know what that means. A demo reseller could make a lot of money right now with the current market. However, as of this post, there are currently no standing orders for bus, res, agri, or indy tech. The standing order price for bushels is $36.